Curse

BahamutKaiser · Jan 02, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Elementist doesn't include a variety of support and healing magics, so pretending that having powerful Ritualist nukes has any comparison is broken.

A vast sum of Elementist skills are overpriced in energy, recast and even casting time, making them unacceptable in most situations, the weakness of Elementist spells is so great that Elementist as a class suffers. And you actually think that the nuking class in the game shouldn't have the most powerful nukes? WTF are you smoking? Obviously a class which lacks armor, healing, fast casting, and interruption earns a greater share of damage, it is balance.

Yes I would complain if Rit had a stronger nuke than Ele, obviously Elementist is a nuke class and Rit is a support class, what kind of idiotic question is that?

shardfenix · Jan 02, 2007, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by rong626

Searing Flames
Increase Energy Cost
OR
Casues Exhaustion
OR
Reduce Burning Time
OR
Increase Skill Recharge

You seem like a newbie to pvp, so instead of insulting you like I do for everybody else, I will tell you why those are bad ideas.

It is obvious by looking at SF that Anet wanted it to be spammable. Increasing the cost or giving it exhaustion contradicts that fact, so those are bad nerf options.

As per the other 2 options, you're not looking at the problem of SF. It isn't the burning or the damage. I can solo a SF ele with almost any build and kill it quite quickly. SF is only good in groups, where either they have multiple SFers or you have multiple people balled up waiting to die.

The best way to nerf SF is to decrease the area it affects.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rong626

Storm Dijin Haste
Increase The Amount Of Energy Lost While Moving(losing 1 energy each time is nothing)

SDH is fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rong626

Offering Of Blood
Increase Energy Cost(if so,decrease sac health)
OR
Increase Skill Recharge

Offering of blood sucks. It already got nerfed, it doesnt need another one.

Retribution X · Jan 02, 2007, 11:15 PM // 23:15

My opinion on SF,

Reduce Energy cost to 5 energy, Make cast time 2 seconds.

Simple, Easier to spam, and Interruptable.

Amity and Truth · Jan 02, 2007, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retribution X

My opinion on SF,
Reduce Energy cost to 5 energy, Make cast time 2 seconds.
Simple, Easier to spam, and Interruptable.

And pretty much gone from any form of PVP for the time being.

JMUN23 · Jan 02, 2007, 11:50 PM // 23:50

To all the people in favor of nerfing SF and Storm Dijinn's Haste:

Let's look at the overall aspects of Elementalist (mages) versus Warriors. First, I believe it's in the handbook that Elementalists are supposed to dish out the most damage, but who really does in PvP? It's the Warriors. Then let's look at any other game. Mages dominate PvP in most other RPG games. So why should SF be changed when it's one of the only mass damage spells that doesn't cause rediculous side effects? I'm guessing since you're not competent enough to overcome an SF build they should just nerf it all together to make it on easier on you. I suppose Elementalists should just run around echoing Meteor Shower like they do in PvE. Would you all prefer that? Really now, can we not change Elementalists back into flag runners?

As for Storm Dijinn's Haste, why should this be changed exactly? Warriors and Rangers don't have to be set of fire or lose energy when they run. Warriors don't even need that much energy so why are you asking to take more energy away from a class that needs it? Oh well. Your mind probably can't comprehend my explaination so I'm going to end this now and not waste anymore of my time.

Gregslot · Jan 02, 2007, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Its only over powered if you come up against its in PvP and you havent had the sense to bring an anti-casting spell.

SF is a elite spell which actually lives up the title of elite.

It offers great recharge time and low energy cost. Unlike every other elite skill ingame which is no better then its normal counterpart.

Stop winging about it and just re-think your party and skills when you play PvP.

And its not that impressive a skill. It soon drains your energy if you continually use it. Once an elemental looses all their energy by spamming it, you can wipe the floor with them.

BTW, yes I am an elemental. If your NOT, then Id say i have more idea what im talking about then you.

Yes, i am an Elementalist. I do play a lot with my elementalist, but i also play a lot with my other charcters.
Yes, it is A Elite skill. But compared to the others, its just freaking powerful, the gap between Glimmering Mark (a bad ele elite) and Searing Flames (the best elite, in my point of view) its just huge. If you put into a balance compared to the other ele elites, it will allways be havier at SF's side, this is called balance, one skill weights more then another.

I think Sandstorm its a little overpowering, 10 secs its too much compared to the other earth skills (taking into consideration that the others aoe skills lasts 5 secs).
Invoke Lighting its good, just that.
Shatterstone its also good, but its bad because it easily removable.

In my point of view, Searing Flames was supposed to be spammable, but it wasnt supposed to deal soo much dmg, they should reduce the aditional dmg to Immolate's level

freekedoutfish · Jan 03, 2007, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregslot

Yes, i am an Elementalist. I do play a lot with my elementalist, but i also play a lot with my other charcters.
Yes, it is A Elite skill. But compared to the others, its just freaking powerful, the gap between Glimmering Mark (a bad ele elite) and Searing Flames (the best elite, in my point of view) its just huge. If you put into a balance compared to the other ele elites, it will allways be havier at SF's side, this is called balance, one skill weights more then another.

I think Sandstorm its a little overpowering, 10 secs its too much compared to the other earth skills (taking into consideration that the others aoe skills lasts 5 secs).
Invoke Lighting its good, just that.
Shatterstone its also good, but its bad because it easily removable.

In my point of view, Searing Flames was supposed to be spammable, but it wasnt supposed to deal soo much dmg, they should reduce the aditional dmg to Immolate's level

If you dont want an elemental using a spammable, powerfull spell then INTERUPT THEM, or DRAIN THEIR ENERGY, or cause all their spells to take longer to cast, or just get out of the AoE once its cast.

There are countless ways to interupt, distrupt and prevent an elemental from casting. The most effective being to remove their enchantments and wait for their energy to drain.

Stop winging just because your having your ass kicked by someone.

And I dont give a toss about PvP.

I play PvE. I dont care whether people arent intelligent enough to bring a decent build, or a decent team to stop elementals using their skills in PvP.

This is just the usual ranting ofs someone who cant be bothered to change their build to counter a powerfull spell, and typically its a PvP player who doesnt consider the impact it will have on PvE.

SF is a god send in PvE. Its about time we had a spell which we can effectively spam, instead of just getting one or two shots out of it.

You actually state that elementals are meant to do high yeild damage. Yet the minute we actually get a spell which lets us do that, you complain.

Gregslot · Jan 03, 2007, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

And I dont give a toss about PvP.

Well i guess that puts and end to our little discussion doesnt it?
If u want to look at only one side of the picture, so sorry. Your lack of perspective will make you see this way, allways.

What is the point of wiping out the mobs with an insane skill? The other classes doesnt do that, why elementalists should and the others shouldnt?
This riminds me of Diablo2. Sorceress could cast tons of spells that destroyed everthing in sight, and Assassins, as an example, had to hit and run and at every 3 hits he could do that damage, at one target.
Thats the sort of thing they dont want in the game.
This skills its just too powerful compared to all the rest of the skills, is that too hard to see?

Nowadays im hardly ever playing PvP, not because "my ass is getting kicked", i jsut because i dont want to, my choice, nothing to do with skills, builds, noobs, saddam getting hanged. And you say "typically its a PvP player who doesnt consider the impact it will have on PvE.", this game works the other way around, and at this case, is effecting PvE.
And it seems to me, that YOU dont want to change your build because you will get your ass kicked.

This reminds me of the old IWAY discussion, IWAY players used to say "its not overpowering", there you got, it got nerfed to its oblivion. And it really was a overpowering build.

At the end, Searing Flames is bad for PvP and bad for PvE.

Get used to it, Searing Flames IS getting nerfed.

Zonzai · Jan 03, 2007, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Searing Flames is hardly in need of a nerf.

Bale_Shadowscar · Jan 03, 2007, 11:01 PM // 23:01

*puts on flame proof suit*

God, I'm sure the ANet skill balances don't have this kind of flame war when deciding how to rebalance skills.

Lets move away from whether Fort Aspenwood is PvP or not, or whether the OP knows anything about skill balancing, or anything like that.

There are loads of other ways to balance the skills than decrease their power:

How about adding extra effects into SF (OK, some people say its overpowered, some people say its fine, lets go with overpowered simply because it was the idea in the OP to nerf it, and the fact that although perhaps not devastating on its own, it can seem overpowered when used by more than 2 eles on a team)

Extra effects: Of course, we could make it "easily interuptable" (like that monk spell, forgot which one), but that would seem a bit overkill. But how about this: Make it half the normal spell range?

This doesn't decrease its power or dangerousness one bit, but makes it so that eles have to be more careful when using it. Either that, or how about a Star Burst kind of effect? If it hits more than one (or X) foes, the caster loses health/energy?

Or, another way which would please most people, is to increase the power of skills which counter it: Martyr, Frigid armor, lots of things like that: make them more tempting to come on to peoples skillbars for reasons other than just countering SF.

Bowstring Badass · Jan 03, 2007, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMUN23

To all the people in favor of nerfing SF and Storm Dijinn's Haste:

Let's look at the overall aspects of Elementalist (mages) versus Warriors. First, I believe it's in the handbook that Elementalists are supposed to dish out the most damage, but who really does in PvP? It's the Warriors. Then let's look at any other game. Mages dominate PvP in most other RPG games. So why should SF be changed when it's one of the only mass damage spells that doesn't cause rediculous side effects? I'm guessing since you're not competent enough to overcome an SF build they should just nerf it all together to make it on easier on you. I suppose Elementalists should just run around echoing Meteor Shower like they do in PvE. Would you all prefer that? Really now, can we not change Elementalists back into flag runners?

As for Storm Dijinn's Haste, why should this be changed exactly? Warriors and Rangers don't have to be set of fire or lose energy when they run. Warriors don't even need that much energy so why are you asking to take more energy away from a class that needs it? Oh well. Your mind probably can't comprehend my explaination so I'm going to end this now and not waste anymore of my time.

Sins, Wars, Eles, and some Dervish builds can dish out dps. Wars can spike with 2 with the help of shatter. Sins can do some amazing dps but get owned becuase of low armor and are mostly used as gank not frontline. Ele's are powerful but have low armor but have many defenses vs melee (b-surge b flash and so on). If anything needs to be nerfed I think it is Shadow Prison(E) maybe make it like 10 energy and like 3/4 a sec cast. How many sins do you see using another elite? Hell even I run Shadow Prison and I think it's overpowered other then the length. Dervish have alright armor high dps making them a better frontline. Warriors can dish dps but to many counters vs all the melee classes as stated above.

rong626 · Jan 04, 2007, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Next week,skill balancing update will be released.Well of course i want mystic regen nerfed too..

Moa Bird Cultist · Jan 04, 2007, 12:24 PM // 12:24

What frojack said...

Oh and pigdestroyer, just cause we're PvE players, it doesn't mean that we don't count. If you cant see or at least accept that much, the person that needs to gtfo is you. Same goes for freekedoutfish and hid refusal to see the PvP sideof the discussion. Honestly, this applies to anyone who refuses to see both sides of an arguement. In this case, the merits and potential power of searing flames need to be looked at from both sides of the coin. So as a PvE player, I'm gonna look at the PvP aspect first.

The way I see it, the problem most PvPers have with this skill is it's power when cast in multiples. At this moment, it would seem, SF is undeniably the best spike skill in the game and given it's capacity in such a situation, much as I don't like it, is destined for the scrapheap.

Now, lets look at the same skill from a PvE aspect, shall we? In casual PvE, 2 SF heroes is enough to make the majority of the game a cakewalk, meaning that in that respect, it is overpowered. BUT, and it's a big but, when you get to high end content like DoA, there are few builds that are actually runnable. SF is one of these few builds. Now on a side note, I'm not for the nerfing of DoA at all, but I'm certainly not in favour of it being even more difficult...

I still think an indirect nerf via glowing gaze would be the best option. That way, the ele will have to think twice about spamming it, but the actual power of the skill itself won't be upset too greatly.

Next up, Gregslot, yes Sandstorm is insanely powerful, but there is one small problem with it - even a lame duck could interrupt it's 2 second cast time. PvP wise, I can only see it being used widely with fast casting and glyph of elemental power. In PvE however, it's runnable as it is, because interrupts are not as prevalent.

Anarion Silverhand · Jan 04, 2007, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Deleted some posts. Let's not turn this into a PvE vs. PvP discussion. Try to stay on topic, and let's get a real discussion going

-Anarion

Sophitia Leafblade · Jan 04, 2007, 02:39 PM // 14:39

I dont think SF needs a nerf, but if it really has to, why not just boost the energy cost to 25 to keep in on par with rodgorts innvocation which is a great skill. Keep the damage and burning the same, dont add exhuastion. then it still has its spikeability but lacks as much spammability.

Sandstorm is easy to avoid it doesnt need a nerf.

What does need a nerf is Rampage as one, it should be made a stance at the vey least

freekedoutfish · Jan 04, 2007, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregslot

Well i guess that puts and end to our little discussion doesnt it?
If u want to look at only one side of the picture, so sorry. Your lack of perspective will make you see this way, allways.

If I want to look at one side of the picture?

Every person who has posted against SF has made their points based around PvP.

This entire debate is biased because everyone wants this skill nerfed because of its effects in PvP.

There isnt a single anti-SF poster who has considered how good this spell is to use in PvE. I'm not the one who isnt considering the larger picture and the over-all effects of nerfing this spell.

But ofcourse the opinion of someone in PvE isnt as important as a PvP player is it? It doesnt matter what effects changing this spell would have on PvE, because our opinions dont count.

The OP actually didnt state anywhere as to why or how these skills need nerfed. He didnt state whether it was PvP or PvE related. But as soon as the post was made, all the PvP'ers jumped on the band wagon and assumed it was PvP related.

I may be wrong here, but I've not seen anyone else in this thread jump to the defence of SF because its a good PvE skill.

If im wrong, I apologise. But dont accuse me of being biased and one-sided, considering the entire content of this thread sways towards the views of PvP'ers.

So speaking in defense of SF in terms of PvE (because yes, I dont give a rats ass about PvP), it doesnt need nerfed. Its an elite skill... it should be powerfull and it should be effective. Its one of the few elite skills which actually lives up to being elite.

Its the one and only fire elite skill that I can think of which actually stands alone at being a good elite skill.

Every other fire elite spell is just as mundain as the none-elite spells. Nothing to write home about, and certainly nothing worthy of "elite".

But again... it is NOT a perfect spell. Echo'ing SF will soon drain your energy regardless of attunement. Especially considering you cant use elite elemental attunement at the same time. This leaves you only able to use fire attunement and far less return on energy.

In terms of PvP, as ive said alot now; Use a build or a party build, to counter elemental casting if you feel SF is such a pain in the a**.

lishi · Jan 04, 2007, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

If I want to look at one side of the picture?

Every person who has posted against SF has made their points based around PvP.

This entire debate is biased because everyone wants this skill nerfed because of its effects in PvP.

There isnt a single anti-SF poster who has considered how good this spell is to use in PvE. I'm not the one who isnt considering the larger picture and the over-all effects of nerfing this spell.

But ofcourse the opinion of someone in PvE isnt as important as a PvP player is it? It doesnt matter what effects changing this spell would have on PvE, because our opinions dont count.

The OP actually didnt state anywhere as to why or how these skills need nerfed. He didnt state whether it was PvP or PvE related. But as soon as the post was made, all the PvP'ers jumped on the band wagon and assumed it was PvP related.

I may be wrong here, but I've not seen anyone else in this thread jump to the defence of SF because its a good PvE skill.

If im wrong, I apologise. But dont accuse me of being biased and one-sided, considering the entire content of this thread sways towards the views of PvP'ers.

Skill balance dont mean neccesary nerf skill you dont like.

when i pve i always take 2 ele ele with searing flame then the last choose is open for either.

- required hero for mission/quest.
- minion master
- searing flame necro.
- broad head arrow if i know there are some annoying ele boss.

when i play with one friend we take 4 ele , us x 2, 2 monk. guess what.

nothing last more then 10 second.

Skill balance are meant for both the way.

if a skill is overpowered in pve it will get nerfed.

if a skill is overpowered in pvp it will get nerfed.

Sophitia Leafblade · Jan 04, 2007, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Its an elite skill... it should be powerfull and it should be effective.

QFT

Elites are meant to be powerful thats why they are Elites. Considering the damage and or effects of alot of other elites theres nothing wrong with it. If it was non elite then yeah i would need nerfing but as it is it doesnt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

when i play with one friend we take 4 ele , us x 2, 2 monk. guess what.
nothing last more then 10 second.

That can be said from the spamming of alot of skills, no one claims about them needing nerfing because there not used as much. The reason people want Sf to be nerfed is because its fotm. If it does get nerfed people will just change to another spike skill for the same effect.

lacasner · Jan 04, 2007, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

Skill balance are meant for both the way.

if a skill is overpowered in pve it will get nerfed.

if a skill is overpowered in pvp it will get nerfed.

This is interesting and true, but I never thought I would need a big variety of skills in pve, because I practically kept like 12 of them for each class and I did fine throughout all 3 storylines. I mean, when I started this game I wondered why I even needed these skills in pve, because after all I am fighting computer controlled creatures not other people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

I may be wrong here, but I've not seen anyone else in this thread jump to the defence of SF because its a good PvE skill.

If im wrong, I apologise. But dont accuse me of being biased and one-sided, considering the entire content of this thread sways towards the views of PvP'ers.

Well, as much as you and me may not like it, it is a pvp game, and hate it or love it I have to live with it, so basically I just got used to it. Skill changes and such "should" in the steriotypical manner that I am addressing it in affect pvpers, I mean they are actually in need of using these skills the most imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anarion Silverhand

Deleted some posts. Let's not turn this into a PvE vs. PvP discussion. Try to stay on topic, and let's get a real discussion going

And what type of pve+pvp discussion would'nt be important? Just because some people tend to turn it into a flame war doesn't mean that it isn't important. It is very important, and should be discussed, at least I think so.

Moa Bird Cultist · Jan 04, 2007, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

If I want to look at one side of the picture?

Every person who has posted against SF has made their points based around PvP.

This entire debate is biased because everyone wants this skill nerfed because of its effects in PvP.

There isnt a single anti-SF poster who has considered how good this spell is to use in PvE. I'm not the one who isnt considering the larger picture and the over-all effects of nerfing this spell.

But ofcourse the opinion of someone in PvE isnt as important as a PvP player is it? It doesnt matter what effects changing this spell would have on PvE, because our opinions dont count.

The OP actually didnt state anywhere as to why or how these skills need nerfed. He didnt state whether it was PvP or PvE related. But as soon as the post was made, all the PvP'ers jumped on the band wagon and assumed it was PvP related.

I may be wrong here, but I've not seen anyone else in this thread jump to the defence of SF because its a good PvE skill.

If im wrong, I apologise. But dont accuse me of being biased and one-sided, considering the entire content of this thread sways towards the views of PvP'ers.

So speaking in defense of SF in terms of PvE (because yes, I dont give a rats ass about PvP), it doesnt need nerfed. Its an elite skill... it should be powerfull and it should be effective. Its one of the few elite skills which actually lives up to being elite.

Its the one and only fire elite skill that I can think of which actually stands alone at being a good elite skill.

Every other fire elite spell is just as mundain as the none-elite spells. Nothing to write home about, and certainly nothing worthy of "elite".

But again... it is NOT a perfect spell. Echo'ing SF will soon drain your energy regardless of attunement. Especially considering you cant use elite elemental attunement at the same time. This leaves you only able to use fire attunement and far less return on energy.

In terms of PvP, as ive said alot now; Use a build or a party build, to counter elemental casting if you feel SF is such a pain in the a**.

Everything you say is quite relevant, I especially agree that the lack of reasoning in the OP didn't exactly get the thread off on the right foot. After all, it irked me enough to post, didn't it?

But I think to get the best picture of why SF may well need a touch from the nerfbat, you should set up a PvE team designed to utilise it the same way it is used in PvP. I think once the mobs start rolling in a matter of seconds, you'll see why it's hated by so many in PvP. One SF ele can be shut down by a mesmer. Two SF eles can be shut down by a good mesmer, but 4 or more SF eles are gonna roll whatever gets in their way, unless the opposite team or mob is loaded with anti caster skills. The trouble with balancing from a PvE point of view is all the extra details you have to take into account - bosses, elemental vulnerabilities and resistances, area effects, how enemy ai will use the skill. So you cant look at it the same way, but it would give some insight if you were to do this anyway.

And I still say change glowing gaze to something like what I suggested